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tv   Politics Public Policy Today  CSPAN  August 27, 2014 9:00am-11:01am EDT

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afterwards with william bu are, , burrows talks about his book the asteroid threat. a nasa documentary about the 1969 apollo 11 moon saturday on the civil war, general william tecumseh sherman's atlanta campaign. sunday night, a look at election laws and supreme court case of bush versus gore. find our television schedule at cspan.org and let us know about the programs you're watching. call us at 202-626-3400. on twitter use #c 123 or e-mail us at comments@c-span.org. like us on facebook. follow us on twitter. next, atomic bomb survivors from hiroshima and nagasaki talk about the lasting emotional and physical effects that ended world war ii in the pacific.
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president truman's grandson clifton trueman daniel participated in the discussion. this was put on by the japan society. it's 1:10. it's a very exciting time to be involved in nuclear of all of the nuclear weapons because there have been some significant changes. the marshall islands filed a suit against the nine countries that have nuclear weapons for their failure to negotiate in good faith to abolish nuclear weapons. there's been two international conferenc conferences, one in oslo, norway and one in mexico in which 147 member states and 120 citizens groups have called for a complete ban of nuclear weapons for humanitarian and environmental reasons. they called for a ban because
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nuclear weapons breed fear among nations, they don't build security. they have a capacity to destroy all life forms on earth, all complex life forms on earth. they divert funds from health care, education, social services and, finally, before i introduce our guests i'd like you to close your eyes for one moment. just close your eyes and think of all the people, places and things you love most in our world. mar imagine that all of that could be destroyed by nuclear weapons. that's why we're here to make sure it never happens. it's my privilege to introduce our honored guests. our first is clifton truman daniel. would you like to come up? [ applause ]
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clifton is the grandson. he's the only person to order nuclear weapons to be used on people. clifton doesn't want them used again. clifton, i believe your grandfather is very proud of the work you do. you will also hear from yumada from hiroshima. he's a shining example of dedication. since the atomic bombing she's devoted her life to working in japan to assist atomic bomb survivors with a lifelong health consequences of radioactive fallout. she also works on the global stage for nuclear abolition and will be speaking at the united nations later today. >> also my honor to introduce michio hakarea.
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he has come to us via the peace boat traveling the world working for peace and environmental justice sharing stories for others ravaged by war. in addition they raise money and give material aid to people affected by natural disasters. we believe you have the right to know about the world that you live in and all people should commit] nuclear weapons that could destroy life on earth as we know it. this is why we do the work that we do. go to the website of the international campaign to abolish weapons icanw.org to learn what you can do to take action now. let's get to work. our first step is to hear what our honored guests have to say. [ applause ] >> thank you, robert. good morning, mr. sakurai, mayor
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matsui, nice to see you again. despite my background, despite myelin kn my lineage i learned about these bombings the same way all of you have, through history teachers through history books. my grandfather did not speak to me about the decision. i think at the time it was because i was very young. he died when i was 15 years old. it's a hard subject to discuss. also, i don't think he would have told me anything differently than he did say publicly about his reasons but i learned about it the same way you did. in my history books the bombings were about a page, page and a half. there were photos of empty landscapes, photos of ruined
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buildings. there was not much about the human cost. it was numbers. how many had been killed, how many had been wounded, how many had been sickened. there wasn't any humanity in that history book. in 1998 when i was working as a journalist in north carolina, we moved from north carolina to chicago and the following year in the spring of 1999 my son wesley brought home a book from school. he was in the fifth grade at the time. he brought home a book. sadako and the 1,000 paper cranes. he was a real little girl who lived in hiroshima. she was 2 years old when the bomb exploded. she and her family survived almost unscathed. she developed radiation induced leukemia nine years later. in an effort to help cure herself she followed a japanese tradition that says if you fold
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1,000 oragami pap-q+ cranes you granted a long life. in either case she wanted both. she wanted to live. she folded more than a thousand paper cranes. she folded about 1,400. unfortunately that did not [bhe. she died in 1955, she's 12 years old. within three years, her friends and family had raised the money to build a statute to her and all the children killed, wounded it stands in the peace park in hiroshima. she's holding up a giant paper . crane. each year people from around the world people leave paper cranes at that memorial.
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at the memorial they leave 10,000 pounds, 10 tons of paper cranes every year just at her statue alone. i thought it was important at the time to read the story. it was the first time i had seen a personal story of hiroshima or nagasaki. so wesley and i read the story together. a few years later i mentioned that fact to a japanese journalist on the anniversary of the bombing in 2004. that story was read in japan. my phone rang. it was sadako's older brother. he said through an interpreter, i heard that you read my sister's story. can we meet together some day? can we work together?
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can we do something? then i said, yes. it took us six years. we didn't meet until 2010 here in manhattan. matsuhiro and his son yugi were donating one of her last paper cranes to the world trade center memorial as a gesture of healing. during that meeting he had a small plastic box and he opened it and he took out a tiny paper crane. in the hospital sadako had to use any kind of paper that she could find. candy wrappers, gift wrap, scraps of paper. anything that she could scrounge from other patients, so some of these cranes are absolutely tiny and delicate. he took one out and he dropped it into my palm and he said, that's the last crane that sadako folded before she died. and at that point he and his father asked me if i would come to the memorial ceremonies in
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hiroshima and nagasaki. my family and i did go two years later. we went on august 6th and august 9th in 2012. we attended the ceremonies in hiroshima and nagasaki, and we sat down and heard testimony from more than 2 dozen surviv s survivors. we were simply there to listen to them. i took my two sons and my wife and we all went to japan and listened to survivors. they each asked only one thing of me after we were done, and that was that i keep telling their stories so that we never do this again. it's a gift and it's not easy for them. it's not easy for rako and michi and the other survivors to re-live this but they take it very seriously and do it out of respect and love for the rest of
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us so that we understand what it's like to live through a nuclear explosion and that we take a step further and get rid of all of those nuclear weapons. it is -- i was i think a typical, atypical american. atypical in that my grandfather was harry truman and ordered the only war time use of nuclear weapons in history but typical in the fact that i grew up not thinking about nuclear weapons. i thought that everything was fine. they had fail safe. they had locks. they had -- that our governments knew what they were doing. it's not -- it's not that safe. i it's not that easy. some of the near misses will make your hair stand on end. how close we've come to setting one of those things off accidentally. so it's a serious issue. it's something that can -- even setting off a few of them can poison the atmosphere, give us nuclear winter. so it's not something that we
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can sit down and ignore. that job is going to fall for you. you have a very special opportunity here today with reiko and michi. again, it's a gift they give to you, to all of us to take and to do something with. so i encourage you to listen to their stories and take the lessons and take the next steps because this is -- this is not only my future but it's very definitely your future and the future of all of your friends and colleagues and family. so thank you all very much for being here this morning. thank you, mayor. nice to see you both again as i said and thank you all. [ applause
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[ applause ] >> translator: hello, everybody. my name is reiko. i'm from hiroshima. it's been 69 years since this happened, the first new atomic bomb was dropped. i was a child at that time, and i'm here to tell you what i experienced on that day as a child. on august 6th, 1945, the atomic bomb was dropped on hiroshima.
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by the year before that, in 1944, the citizens had been living a very hard life, severe life. there was hardly any food and even our clothing were ragsed to us with tickets. and because of all of the air raids in tokyo and hearing about this and also knowing that all the u.s. bombers flying above
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our sides, we were -- we were ordered to flatten the land, flatten all the buildings, and it was us, the citizens that had to do this. and by citizens, i mean children just like you around 13, 14, 15 years old and our mothers. we children in elementary school were ordered to evacuate to the countryside for safety and all the areas that we evacuated from were then utilized by the
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military. and that -- and because of this resulted that there was a lack of education for all of us young children. by that time, about half of the young children had been evacu e evacuated to the countryside. i was scheduled to evacuate on august 9th. on august 6th, early in that morning, there was not a single cloud in that sky. it was a beautiful blue sky.
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and all of the children that were still in the town went to the school yard. and so we were in the school yard, and there came a moment where we took a rest. when we looked up into the sky, there was a b-29 bomber making a u-turn and it was shiny, bright. as it made a u-turn it created a white tail wind that you could see. it was quite beautiful. and as we were looking up to the sky thinking how beautiful it was, in an instant there was an immense flash and we were blinded.
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and so we immediately ran to the air raid shelters, and what happened to myself is that a blast of heat, immense heat hit my back and i was blown to the ground. in just a moment after that there was rain and we began to shiver. we later learned that that's what's called the black rain. moments later we noticed that
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many of the people that were closer to the hyper center of where the bomb was dropped continued to run towards our area. they were injured or coated in blood. it was an overflow of people. they all cried out for help, asked for water, but we had no water to provide and we were not even able to help them. my family was composed of six family members, and on that day my mother and my 16-year-old sister and my 13-year-old sister were at home.
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my father was located about 1 kilometer from the hypo center. after a while he was brought home, completely coated in blood, by two soldiers. on the eve of the second day after the bomb was dropped, her back and her neck were severely burned. we had no way to -- no medication or no way to treat them and there were no doctors to help treat either so what
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they had to do was just sit there or lie down in pain. and so my mother decided to go to a neighbor's house and ask for cucumbers. she brought the cucumbers home, sliced them very thinly, and placed them on my sister's neck and back, but the pain was excruciating and it didn't help enough. and my sister, half naked from her waist up, would be crying in pain. by the second day the overflow of people, almost everybody had died.
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and on the third day all of these bodies were carried as if they were trash or garbage on to all of our school yards.3;1l%ñ they were then cream mamated an stench and the black smoke in the sky was unbearable. even in my neighborhood there was a home where there were five children. they had been waiting for days for their mother to return. on the second day their mother finally made it home, all black
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and on four legs, and at the moment that she arrived home, she fell over and died and left the five childrenz on their own. in another neighboring home there was a mother that had been waiting for her daughter. her daughter never returned so she made lunch box, every day, and for a month and for two months she continued to search for her daughter but never found her. there was no help for these people. never were they able to meet their families again. there's so many people that died with no names.
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it is those deaths that we will never be able to forget. after cremating all of these bodies they were buried into the ground so as a result of the war we had very little to eat. we decided to plant sweet potatoes into the ground. when it was finally harvest time the following year and we dug up, more than the sweet potatoes, there were so many bones.
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within that year in hiroshima and nagasaki 210,000 lost their lives. and in the early years and for years after that there was no way to treat what had happened to these people because the nuclear weapon was something new. nobody knew how to treat the people that were being affected by the results. we living hibaksha call this
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weapon a weapon of the devil. there are still to this day so many people that are experiencing the after effects, including radiation. there are so many people that experienced during that time severe burns or being blast into the air. this type of weapon is completely indiscriminate of who it attacks. there are still so many hibaksha
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that are experiencing health issues and pain, agonizing pain. this is because there has not been any clear results as to the research of what the effects of
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and it is my desire on behalf of all of the hibaksha, that if you will listen to our plea and our story and carry it within your young power and your energy and do something, relay it, our message so that we can actually have -- so that you can actually have a world of peace free of nuclear weapons and a safe one for your own self in the future. thank you very much. [ applause ]
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>> he hai'd like to welcome the students from the eagle academy. yes. [ applause ] welcome. we know it was a long ways to come in to get to here today so we're glad that you made it.
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>> translator: hello, everyone. my name is michio hakaria. i would like to talk to you my story, what i experienced when i was 8 years old. i was the second grade of the grammar school. this is a picture of the current nagasaki city.
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it is a beautiful city and it's well known internationally as well. well, 69 years ago at the red dot point it says hypo center. that's the place where atomic bomb was dropped. it actually exploded 500 meters above the ground. at that time my house was located about three to four kilometers away from the hypo center.
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the city of nagasaki didn't have a flat area. it was a rather mountainous city. as you see, even on top of the mountains there were houses. well, around -- the port area there were residential areas and the factories. let me explain to you about nagasaki city and this map. you see the blue dot or the green dot is the hypo center.
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well, when the bomb was dropped, the actual heat of the bomb was 3,000 to 4,000 centigrade. well, each circle that you see here is marked every 300 meters. within 1 kilometer area all by animals and the plants were completely destroyed. at that time there were radiation. heat ray in a blast. an explosive blast.
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when it comes to the blast, for example, at 1 kilometer away from the hypo center the speed of the blast was about four times faster than the baseball that was thrown by the professional baseball pitcher. so please imagine the sounds tod pieces of wood and things like that were just flying against you. there were many people who died because of these, you know, flying objects.
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so it was 1945, august 9th, the atomic bomb was dropped. this picture was taken about two to three days prior to the atomic bomb was dropped by the american forces. can you see the river running through the city? my best friend and i were supposed to go swimming to that river the day before the atomic bomb was dropped.
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actually, the day when the bomb was dropped -- before that, although i wanted to go swim in that river with my friend, my mother stopped me because i haven't finished my homework for summer vacation so my mother told me, you have to finish before you go swimming.
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so i stayed home without going swimming, and this is a picture that was taken three days after the atomic bomb was dropped. as you can see, there's nothing remain after this. so this is something very similar to my situation at that time. i was studying at home and there's a strong flash of light. at that time i thought there was a huge bomb was dropped so i covered my eyes and ears and made my whole body under -- put myself under something.
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then i experienced a huge blast. we were inside a house and still the furniture pieces and the piece of glass -- pieces of glass were just flying against us as if they were like knives. previously as she explained about her older brother who got injured with the flying glasses, this is what happened.
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these pictures were taken within 1 kilometer diameter from the hyper center. as you can see, the animals and the people were dying like this. please take a look at this picture. as i explained to you before, at that day i was supposed to go swimming. i know my friend went there to swim and i remained home because my mother stopped me going.
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well, i'm not sure if this boy was my friend or not. however, every single time when i see this picture, that could be myself. so when i think of it, that really excruciate me. i get very sad. this is a picture of mother and her child dying -- dead right by the -- on the platform. this place was actually within 1 kilometer diameter so there was no way they could survive.
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at that time nagasaki's population is like a 210,000 people. and 1/3 of them died. there were so many people got injured and medical facilities were not enough so the emergency places, school facilities were used for -- in order to treat injured people. so this is the picture of injured people being brought to school buildings.
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therefore, the regular classrooms became hospital rooms. each room was filled with people who were dying or got severely well, in about a month everyone in this classroom disappeared. which means all of them died.
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it was in the midst of summer. it was very, very hot. it was urgent matter to treat the dead bodies, otherwise, it will be completely rotten. so school grounds were utilized as cremating spots. so they made a -- they dug a big holes and filled with dead bodies and they poured gasoline and all the stuff and burned
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without knowing who they were. this is a picture of actual cremation in the school ground. so this cremation lasted regardless daytime or nighttime. it just continued days after days. this is the kind of playground where i used to play as a kid with my friends.
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at the beginning we were so fearful because we knew that they were burning human bodies, right? but gradually as you observed this kind of activities day by day, we kind of get used to it. so our physical distance get closer and closer. so as we get closer to cremating scene, we thought like a head
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dropping down or arm dropping down. we were able to see that. so as a little child i was just sad as i grasped, oh, the head dropped down. as i said so, my family members came to me and yelled at me, don't say such a thing! even as 8 years old i grew up as i witnessed what the war is like.
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i came here to tell you how important it is. you have make sure that war will never happen. after our testimonies, please go back home and tell what you witnessed, what you heard to your family, to your parents.
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so please ask parents when they go to workplaces to tell -- please extend what you heard through your parents to your co-workers and friends and tell them, please stop war and please abolish nuclear weapons and please think about a world of peace. i used to have seven family members. among five siblings, four of them got cancer. my eldest bloer died of lunge cancer.
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my eldest brother died of lung cancer. my second brother suffered with cancermy eldest brother died of cancer. my second brother suffered with cancer sorry, i'm not familiar with the technical term but the area of your -- esophagus. >> esophagus. >> translator: say it again please. >> esophagus. >> translator: he got cancer of that area and it was very delicate area and the doctor was not sure whether he should operate there or not.
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my third brother got cancer, stomach cancer and what was -- prostate cancer. well, so far i haven't got any cancer yet, but you never know. so what i want to say here is the war and nuclear weapons is not a question of that particular moment. ramifications last long, long afterwards.
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as you know in nagasaki there's this beautiful statue for peace and hiroshima there's also a peace memorial. so praying for the warless world, in japan we have these three important principles. japan shall neither possess nor manufacture nuclear weapons nor shall it permit their introduction into japanese territory.
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well, in japan our constitution clearly states in its article 9 that japan will never engage in wars, this is internationally clearly declared. well, right now in between japan and the u.s. there's a kind of peace treaty which states that they are supposed to protect each other. well, maybe you can say that japan is protected by the u.s.
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however, japan's constitution clearly said that we will never engage in war. this april 9th noble peace academy nominated article 9 of japan's constitution as a candidate of nobel peace award. let's protect the peaceful world. thank you so very much. [ applause ]
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liej i'm told we have time for questions. and each of the schools was asked to pick a designated question asker. i'm going to go down the list and see if you guys -- who's representing each school. eagle academy, do you have a designated question asker? and questions can be, you know,
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share questions, share thoughts, it could be for any one of us. there's debate. whoever -- yeah. stand up. yeah, there we go. >> microphone is coming. >> to your left. to your left. >> okay. one question i do have to ask you guys, you guys are giving us your stories and telling us about how nuclear weapons are bad and obviously war is bad. i have one question. what would you tell, not us, but like our children's children who don't -- who never -- who don't really -- well, they'll hear about world war ii but they won't know what it is like us. they're so further down the line
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that they won't even realize it. what would you say to them, like further down the line where technology is better. what would you say to them? >> saying to future generations, you know, their grandchildren. nuclear weapons, what would you tell them about the dangers? what would you tell them about what happened? what would you say speaking ahead to generations. >> [ speaking foreign language ]
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>> i completely understand your what we would say to the future generations. however i believe it is extremely important that we put our efforts towards right now, right now today, because there are so many nuclear weapons out there right now in this world. ourselves already there cease so many people that have no
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experience or know anything directly about the wars. even in japan, two thirds of the population know nothing about war. so in a sense, we, our generations, we're in a sense panicking as to how we can do as much as we can do abolish all nuclear weapons from this world. and in order to do so it is very important that we keep a record, continue to relay the facts of history, especially on an educational room. >> just to add to that something that was said quickly when we were doing this. if your grandchild comes to you years from now and wants to know, you can tell him or her that you've heard firsthand what it was like. so it becomes your
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responsibility to carry that as well. kay o academy, designated question asker. [ speaking foreign language ] >> the question is, you said that you did not receive any education during that time. so how did you receive education therefore? [ speaking foreign language ]
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[ speaking foreign language ] >> although i said that there was hardly any education, it doesn't mean that we didn't all have any education. what happened is, is that half were able to continue with their education and half of the children were dutied to be in the work corps. and this is one reason is
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because the school yards or the school buildings were being utilized by the military. however, in hiroshima, education is a vital factor of the society. so we were back into education mode fairly quickly. after the bomb was dropped, by the end of september, many of the schools had already started over again. of course we didn't have any good textbooks or anything of that sort. but by the end of the year we were already taking our tests in order to get to the next level of education. [ applause ] >> marble hill. >> were you able to forget about the images of the bomb? how did you overcome the tragedy mentally, emotionally speaking?
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[ speaking foreign language ] >> it is impossible to forget about the atomic bombing. [ speaking foreign language ] >> what remains in my mind is that flash of light. [ speaking foreign language ] >> when i witnessed many people severely, severely burned people were saying, please give me some water, please give me some
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water. and that scene will never go away -- goes away. [ speaking foreign language ] >> it's been about almost 70 years since then and all i really want to do is i want you to know what i experienced. that's it. [ applause ] >> designated -- i got that righ right? >> what do you guys think about nuclear power were like the
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power plants and ur rain yum and stuff? [ speaking foreign language ] >> of course especially what happened with the puck sheem ma daiichi plant, we were very sensitive as to what was happening. we strongly believe that nuclear
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power plants and nuclear weapons are but both sides of one coin. so we would really like for the world to change to natural energy. also, we have been pleaing to t tenco to find a way to support financially the people that were victims of the incident. [ speaking foreign language ] >> currently in japan there are 54 nuclear reactors. [ speaking foreign language ] >> currently none of them are
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operating. [ speaking foreign language ] >> but as you can imagine, nuclear power plant companies and other industries are pushing for reopening nuclear reactors right now. [ speaking foreign language ] >> there's a very difficult situation between local municipalities who are against oopening nuclear power plant and the policy of the nation who is willing to reopen the nuclear reactors. thank you. [ applause ]
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>> we have about three minutes left. we still have new york harbor school and young girl leadership school. do you have designated questioners and askers and maybe the questions are close enough that we can field both. if not, we're sunk. >> i was wondering what some other methods you guys suggest for solving conflict besides nuclear weapons and war.
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[ speaking foreign language ] >> of course for me personally the ideal would be to communicate and have discussions and talk. i believe that we should never utilize power or force to get our points across. but more so, even though my ideal is communication, i would like to ask all of you, what do you think? what do you think you can do or what other countries can do to solve all of the conflicts in
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the world? [ applause ] >> apparently we've been granted five more minutes, so i lied about time. we have young women's leadership school can indeed ask a question. [ applause ] . >> we wanted to ask if there was any resentment from the whole event? and if not, how did you move on or how did you forgive?
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[ speaking foreign language ] >> there's no hatred, per se. i've kbon to many different countries and often been asked do you hate america. i don't hate america. how can i hate america. it was war. even japan was horrible. we all did different -- it's war. people do things that can cause hatred. but we should not have hatred. we should -- for the future we should consider the other
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parties and to learn how to forgive and how to work together for the future without any hatred. [ applause ] >> sorry i forgot the last phrase. thank you. the only thing i do hate are nuclear weapons. [ speaking foreign language ]
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[ speaking foreign language ] >> i do not have any hatred against the u.s. but it is a clear fact that this country has been relying on its nuclear military power and it's up to this country's policy, how they're going to deal with nuclear power. i think they should either abolish. and as a global leader, this country have to make sure that -- i'm sorry, has to make sure its direction, and that's what i've been -- that's my concern. so until the u.s. shows this new
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direction, i cannot say that i don't hate -- once again, i'm sorry. [ speaking foreign language ] >> so until this policy becomes clear, i cannot say that i can forgive what they've done to japan. thank you. [ applause ] >> i believe that concludes the program. dr. sullivan has some final words. finally for me, just speaking as an american and harry tru man's grandson, they bring these stories to me without resentment and without anger out in the name of understanding. and i think i would have been a fool not to listen and to try to do something.
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with live coverage of the u.s. house on c espn, here on c-span 3 we compliment that coverage by showing you the most relevant congressional hearings. and then on weekends c-span 3 is the home to american history tven clugd six sere res, the civil war's 150th anniversary, american art facts, touring museums and historic sites to discover what the art facts reveal, history book shelf, the presidency, looking at the policies and legacies, lectures and history, what top college professors devil into america's past, and our new series, real america, featuring educational films from the 1930s through the '70s. created by the cable tv industry and funded by your local cable or satellite provider.
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follow us on twitter. >> american history kf normally airs on the weekend. but with congress on recess throughout august we're featuring highlights. we continue our look at world war ii and the dropping of the atomic bop. these they debate the decision to drop the bombs. tlart we'll hear from survives on the lasting effects of the bombings. tonight on american history tv, a focus on the cold war beginning with a discussion about the lessons learned 25 years since the fall of the berlin wall. and a look at the human radiation experiments. and skol lores debate the foreign policies of george h.w. bush and the decisions that led to the end of the cold war.
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that's tonight beginning at 8:00 eastern here on c-span3. >> next, history processer grant weller talks about the use of atomic bombs at the end of world war ii. they discuss american motivations for dropping the bombs, and the consideration for choosing the target cities. >> outstanding. take your seats please. okay. so what we'll be doing today is finishing our chronological survey of the second world war with the end of the asia pacific war, before next week launching into our detail discussion of race into the pacific war. what we're starting off with
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here is the actual surrender ceremony in september of 1945 with the demonstration of air and naval strength that macarthur and others arranged to just drive home to the japanese exactly what had happened here. and also to emphasize to them that the very correct observance of the surrender terms would be in the japanese best interests. on the side is the missouri itself which was the sight of the signing ceremony. before we get into the lesson, per se, which will include the battle of okinawa where we have some marines passing one of the fallen japanese soldiers does anybody have any questions for the material you read today? >> yes, sir. >> my question is more the political -- how did roosevelt and all the upper leadership in the military justify okinawa
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when they knew they would drop the bomb in two months? >> let's get our chronology straight. when is the first successful test of an atomic bomb? >> july? >> july of 1945. when is okinawa? >> april. >> so, remember, history has lived forward even though it's written backward. in april of 1945 nobody knows for sure if this thing is going to work. and also as we'll discuss in a little more detail further on, it's not really certain what the japanese response to the atomic bomb or atomic bombs is going to be. is this going a war winner by itself? most of the american leadership doesn't think so. it's a useful tool in that direction, but it's not necessarily going to win the war by itself. so the american planners, the american military, political
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leadership are proceeding under the assumption that japan has to be defeated through conventional means, and that includes capturing okinawa as an advanced air base and anchorage air base for the bombing of japan and for the support of the invasion fleet that most americans believe is inevitable. does that answer your question? >> yes, sir. >> very good. anybody else? >> you mentioned there were 180,000 civilian army members perished between the two atomic bombs almost immediately. do you have numbers of, you know, post-war, how many people actually perished from those bombs, and what was the actual, total casualty count from those experiences? >> i'm shooting off the top of my head here. my best guess or my best recollection is that it more or less doubles when you take into account the people who die of
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their wounds or that suffer long-term disability or injury. part of the problem in figuring it out exactly is the risk of cancer. the risk of cancer definitely goes up in hiroshima and nagasaki, for that matter in new mexico in nevada where nuclear test sites take place in the united states. but it's not a one-to-one relationship, i.e., you go this place, get cancer and die somewhere down the road. it's hard to nail those down exactly but roughly double. yes. >> i have a question. >> uh-huh. >> the fire in tokyo produced massive destruction, 100,000 deaths in tokyo. when truman issued the declaration or the warning on july 26th to the japanese that, you know, massive destruction is forthcoming, why don't they take heed of this? >> well, great lead into the
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rest of the class. but the japanese are kind of in an endurance mode, i.e. we can keep taking this until we have the opportunity for the final decisive battle that will inflict enough casualties on the americans that the americans will give up and, if not go home, they will at least give up and negotiate on terms they find acceptable. part of it is the warning is vague enough that they're not sure what truman means by this. they suffered enormous casualties from a western point of view they clearly passed the point of no return where they should have long ago surrendered and accepted whatever the americans had to deal out as a better alternative to continuing to suffer the war. but the japanese leadership doesn't see it that way yet. >> how serious was the government approach to arming
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civilians for the last home defense of japan? i know you say historical, but how serious, how convincing was it done by the government? >> the government was very involved. they deeply believed in this. this program, this idea of civilians fighting to the last, sacrificing their lives as a way of inflicting enough damage on the americans that the americans would somehow negotiate. how seriously did the japanese civilian population take it? that's a much more difficult question to answer because, indeed, the war does end before the invasion. so at the time nearly every japanese civilian took it seriously and publicly, at least, said absolutely we're all in for this, this is a great idea. because to say otherwise would have been disadvantageous if not suicidal. after the war ends many japanese
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civilians say, you know what, that was a bad idea. i don't think i would have charged an american with a bamboo spear or thrown myself under a tank. at that point the war is over. it's very difficult for us to go back and try to understand what might have really happened if the united states is invaded. would civilians have fought or not? i think the best answer is, some would, some wouldn't. but as to whether the some would would have been bigger or smaller than the some wouldn't, it's hard to say. both the japanese high command and the united states did believe, though, that the civilian population would resist and resist violently. >> was that a key factor in deciding to drop the nuclear bomb? >> it's a key factor in all american and allied planning for the invasion and for the defeat of japan. yes, sir.
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>> i have a question about if anybody talked about the surrender of the japanese and it was accepted with no terms at all or unconditional surrender, it mentioned the part about the civilians and how there were gun shots heard all across the country, kind of colorful language. was that actually really the case like there were mass suicides, not mass suicides but several instance of suicides across the country in japan. >> yes. there were many instances of suicide mostly on far of the japanese military feeling the emperor coming forward saying we lost the war and failed as a nation reflected on them personally and that the only way they could assuage their personal honor was to kill themselves. the reason why it ripples out there, one of the things the bombings have done, severely damaged the japanese
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communication network. plus, as we're talking about the high level japanese discussions, up until the point where the emperor intervenes the official line is japan is fighting this out to the end. so, the emperor's announcement comes as a shock to many people who had kind of planned out their lives, literally. this is what i'm going do with the rest of my life. i'm going to fight the americans until i die. and to have that taken away at that moment was a deep shock, and so a lot of military people respond through suicide in an effort to asuede the feeling of guilty. >> they were accepting unconditional surrender why did they leave hirohito in power? >> the idea of unconditional surrender is not that the japanese -- not that the
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americans are going to destroy japan or any more than they destroyed germany but japan will not get to negotiate terms. because the united states, the top leadership had already to some degree decided that keeping hirohito around might be a good idea, the occupation planners are saying, okay, how do we control this country, how do we occupy this country, how do we pacify this country, as they believed, of complete fanatics. many said we need to keep hirohito around because if he tells the japanese to cooperate with the occupation, they will. so that one condition the japanese are putting forward the united states is more than willing to accept. and you will recall looking at the language they are using they are talk past each other in some ways. the japanese don't get an absolute guarantee that hirohito will remain on the throne. the united states isn't willing to say that in so many words,
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but willing to hint at it if that's what it takes to get the japanese to agree to surrender and then hirohito's cooperation is going to become an important part of the occupation. anybody else? >> i know when i was reading about the planned invasion, they also mention that some people thought it would be better to use economic strangulation and fire bombing. was that still under consideration when they were discussing the use of the bomb? >> yes. that's one of the options on table.#rbzñ'çlç- that one because we're going discuss that in some detail. but, yes, it's still on the table. good. anybody else? okay. let's go ahead, then, and press ahead. we've talked about this all semester. what has the japanese strategy been all along for this war?
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break the will of the americans how? inflicting casualties. the idea is japan is not -- japan would certainly accept, but japan does not realistically expect to win a straight-up military victory. instead by resisting american pressure, by causing american casualties, they will get the united states to the point where the u.s. will agree to negotiate on terms favorable to the japanese. specifically, the japanese would love to keep some of the conquered territory to keep the resources that they went to war to get in the first place. that strategy is unchanged. but, again, as we saw before and we're still seeing, the execution of that strategy is changing. so how did the japanese attempt to execute that strategy at iwo jima? okay. they dig in how? >> massive tunnel system. >> yeah. this is a switch from previous
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island campaigns. the japanese essentially become subterranean on iwo jima with the idea that by dicking in they can be alive longer to cause casualties. >> also they get away with the bomb attacks and gave instructions to resist like down the last man fight until they die type doctrine. but they got rid of the charges they had been doing for a while so they could last longer. >> exactly. the idea is to endure, to hold out as long as possible, to cause casualties. the specific order is every soldier needs to kill ten americans before he dies. and note that before he dies that's a built in assumption. the defenders of the iwo jima assume they will die. their job is just to cause as many casualties as possible on the way. good. how about okinawa? what's different at okinawa in the execution of this strategy?
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>> okinawa they have a counter attack in a sense pick off the americans. >> yeah. absolutely. they allow the landing to proceed pretty much unopposed which is completely different than the doctrine that the japanese have been following in the rest of the pacific war. they allow the americans to land, to get well ensconced on okinawa, but then they have multiple lines of resistance and they use the terrain to great advantage because there's an additional element to the strategy. not only are the japanese trying to hold out on okinawa and cause as many casualties as possible to the allied soldiers and marines -- >> they incorporated -- >> how so? >> using the kamikazi aircraft and boats.
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>> they're going to attack the american fleet. the longer they hold out the longer the american fleet has to remain in the waters around okinawa where it's an identifiable target. how effective -- go ahead. >> why didn't they have a naval component? >> part of it is simply distance. iwo jima is further away. the japanese don't have much of an effective surface force. they are also suffering from the submarine blockade which has reduced their access to fuel oil. in fact, what is the rest of the japanese navy, the remnants of the japanese navy do at okinawa? more or less how? the japanese have one asset left.
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anybody remember it? the battleship "yamato," they send it off with a fleet of light escorts and only enough fuel to make it to okinawa. it doesn't make it that far, of course. american air cover in particular is far too strong for it. of but it's kind of their last gasp. they've got to have the american fleet in a place they know they can find it. they don't have enough fuel to go sailing around the ocean, even if american air power weren't an issue. yes. >> says in the reading also right here, they launched 355 kamikazes that sunk 7 ships and damaged 17, which is obviously pretty significant. industrially we can make up for that, but at that point in time, pretty significant. although we did some back and sink the "yamato" and escort ships as well. >> absolutely. the american navy suffers more deaths at okinawa than they did in their whole previous rest of the pacific war.
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now, how does that play into the japanese strategy? got to cause the pain, right? that's the whole idea. wear down the american will by causing casualties. okinawa is almost ideal from the japanese point of view. they cause horrific casualties to the american land forces, the length of the battle forces, american navy to stay off okinawan waters for an extended period of time where they're vulnerable, especially the kamikazes. but okinawa does fall. and the japanese high command very quickly realizes what's most likely next on the agenda. the invasion of the home islands. so how do they prepare for this possibility? >> the japanese are going to provide like 1.7 million people
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estimated to defend the islands. along with whatever area enforcements they have left and pretty much bring everything back to the main land, and pretty much have an all-out fight. hopefully to repel the americans, which really is kind of hopeless at this point. >> yeah. militarily, it's a challenge at best. what they're going to do is, try to bring home as many troops as they can. remember, throughout the majority of the asian pacific war, most japanese soldiers are in china, not on the islands defending against the americans. so they're doing their best, despite the american submarine and air blockade, to bring troops home from china. to defend the home islands. and, as we talked about earlier during the q & a, they're going to arm the civilian population. or as the official policy becomes known, the glorious death of 100 million. the idea that rather than surrender, the japanese are going to fight to the death as a nation.
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and this is an illustration of japanese school girls look to be in the 10 to 12 range, maybe early teens at the latest, training to resist the american invasion using bamboo spears. and you'll note in the background, you'll see a lot of army leadership. this was an official program. this is sponsored by the government. this is required by the government. all right. is there a way out for japan at this point? as you've already pointed out, their chances of resisting the invasion to actually stop the invasion aren't good. so what are the possibilities for getting out of this thing? >> talk to the soviets? >> talk to the soviets. see if they can't get soviet mediation. now, the japanese do not understand at this point the agreements that have already been made between the american,
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british and soviet leaders at a series of conferences that the soviet union is going to enter the pacific war. the japanese also severely underestimate stalin's interest in regaining territory that the japanese took from russia during the russo-japanese war 1904-1905. their thinking is, well, maybe we can come to some kind of balance of power arrangement. if the soviets will prop us up now, they'll help us negotiate our way out of this war with the americans. then we can maybe help the soviets later on. at least that's what we're going to tell them. so the japanese do launch a major diplomatic effort to get the soviets to mediate the war. mediate an end to the war. so why doesn't this work out? [ inaudible ] >> the soviets see that they have more to gain in terms of territory and geopolitical position through entering the war than they do from helping
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the japanese get out of it. >> obviously, we've already had pearl harbor occur. and the death toll through the war thus far was i believe four times that of what it was in europe, from what the book said. so at this point, even if the soviets got involved, i believe that the american people wouldn't be satisfied with anything less than unconditional surrender from the japanese people. even if you were able to enter those points, these options here, i don't think it really was something that could be stopped or mediated peacefully. >> yeah. what kind of terms are the americans willing to accept at this point? >> nothing but unconditional surrender. >> unconditional surrender. the americans have been saying this all along. the americans have issued clarifications. essentially saying, when we say unconditional surrender, we don't mean we're going to enslave the japanese people. we're not going to -- there's not going to be mass executions
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or anything like that. what they're saying when they say unconditional surrender is, the japanese are not going to have a voice. the americans will decide what's to be done. the americans plan to be merciful, but this is not going to be a negotiation between equals. this is going to be a relationship between victor and vanquished. what kind of terms were the japanese looking for when they tried to get soviet mediation and push for a negotiated surrender or some sort of negotiation? what are the japanese asking for in their communications to moscow? >> was it for -- >> yes. the personal survival of the emperor and his continuation in power is definitely one of the things on the japanese list.
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>> is it keep -- keep french in -- >> yeah. they're looking to keep some of the territory. probably not all of it. they understand that. they're looking to keep at least some of the territory they conquered, because, i mean, that was what the war was all about, right? the ability to control those resources they needed. so looking for some territorial concessions. what else? how about war crimes trials? there will be war crimes trials, but the japanese will conduct them. so it will be the japanese sitting in judgment of other japanese without the united states having a role. how about repatriation of japanese troops? the troops who were trapped on the islands are still fighting in the philippines, still occupying china. how are they going to get home and what are they going to do when they get there? who is going to take them home? >> japanese. >> the japanese will. why would that be potentially important for the japanese?
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>> because they could just -- >> i'm sorry? >> they could just leave them there. >> they could leave them there. >> still control the empire. >> that's one possibility. let's say they go ahead and bring them home, as promised. they negotiate a deal, they can bring their troops home. how are they going to come home? are they going to come home in defeat, hanging their heads? no. if the japanese bring their own troops home, they can essentially declare victory. their troops can come home with their arms intact, waving their flags. is this starting to sound like germany in 1918? >> yes. >> absolutely. and why is the united states not going to accept a japanese surrender that involves the japanese repatriating their own troops? >> they don't want a world war iii. >> exactly. >> they want the germans to know it's over. >> that's the only point of unconditional surrender. to make sure the defeated nation knows it.
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so there will be no stab-in-the-back myth like hitler exploited in germany in his rise to power. with this idea that, well, we really would have won the war if it weren't for -- name your scapegoat. the americans definitely don't want the japanese pulling that number on them. okay? so the soviets going to mediate? nah. soviets aren't going to mediate this one. and even if they did, were the japanese willing to offer anything the americans would accept? no. all right. so here we are coming also to the end of american strategy. what's american strategy been all along? >> the mainland? >> yeah, get to the mainland of japan. occupy japan, force an unconditional surrender, so that the japanese know they have been beaten and there won't be another war. we've talked about in the past the progressive brutality of american tactics. the hardening of the war, as
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time has gone on. in part a response just to the nature of war itself, and in part a response to the calculated atrocities carried out by the japanese. the japanese are trying to wear down american will by -- through these atrocities, and it's actually backfiring. it's making the americans more determined to carry on to final victory. as you brought up during the q & a, the fire bombings. so if the united states is being so successful in bombing japanese cities and burning out japanese industry, is that going to be a war winner? >> no. >> why not? >> because it doesn't have -- it doesn't have a strategic effectg i mean, there are still japanese soldiers on the islands with inflicted casualties. so it's not like in germany, where we can have a combined offensive and achieve somewhat of an effect. but in japan, i mean, we're just bombing cities and civilians. we're not actually achieving a strategic effect. >> well, what's happened to
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japanese industry as a result of these fire bombings? >> what's left is not substantial. >> yeah, japanese production has plummeted. it's in some ways becoming almost a deindustrialized nation. but do you think it's going to make the japanese quit? >> no. >> no. no. even know the japanese are not producing war material at this point in anything like effective quantities, they still can stash away what they had, what they had already produced, and await the american invasion. we've talked about the blockade. mainly carried out by submarine. but also by aerial mines and surface ships and attack aircraft. how is that affecting japan? >> was it in -- between '41 to '42 their shipping was around 2.5 million tons -- 2.5 million tons, i believe.
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in that time frame. and by 1945, it was cut in half through our operational endeavors in the pacific ocean. that's obviously pretty significant, especially in a country that doesn't have a lot of natural resources on its mainland. >> yeah. i mean, that's what the war is all about, right? getting access to those resources. rubber, oil, food. and that's all pretty much cut off at this point. but is it making the japanese quit? no. and this gets us to the question you were asking, cadet ferry, about the continuation of the blockade or the continuation of bombardment being the way to go. some americans -- some american leaders did argue, yes, let's not invade japan. let's just keep up with the bombing raids, let's just keep up with the blockade, and eventually they've got to quit. what's the problem with that from the american point of view? >> don't know how long it's
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going to take. >> how long is this going to take? years, potentially. even with the invasion planned, when was the first invasion of japan supposed to be, according to the timetable? >> summer of '46? >> that would be the second. spring of '46 would be the second. first was going to be november of '45. and not until spring of 1946 would the second invasion take place near tokyo. so even with the invasion, the americans are anticipating this war is going to go on at least until mid 1946. how long is it going to go on without an invasion? it's hard -- there's no telling. by american standards, japan is beaten. there's no point to this. but the japanese don't see it that way. as a result, the fire bombings will continue, even though the 20th air force is rapidly running out of japanese cities to burn.
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the blockade is going to it continue, but operation downfall, the invasion of japan, is on the books. it's going to happen. at least on paper. at least on the plan. so what's it going to be like? >> brutal. 500,000 casualties are what they're predicting, out of the 1. -- i think 1.2, 1.3 million soldiers that they estimate it will take to actually be successful in this operation. >> yeah. it's going to be the biggest amphibious invasion in history. it's going to dwarf the normandy invasion. it is going to be huge, and the casualties are going to be terrible. now, after the war, historians have gotten into a lot of debates over the exact casualty numbers. it's a little confused because you have a lot of different agencies trying to estimate the
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casualties and they're using different numbers. for instance, you have one group that's trying to estimate casualties in terms of replacements. so this is the number of replacement infantrymen, replacement artillery men, replacement machine gunners we're going to need. so that's one set of casualty figures. another set of casualty figures is being set up by the medical personnel. okay? how many of this kind of hospital -- how many hospitals are we going to need, how many hospital ships are we going to need. those types of things. those numbers are not quite contradictory but very different, but they're all big. i think probably the most telling statistic out there has to do with procurement of metals. specifically purple hearts. the united states made so many purple heart medals, anticipating casualties in the invasion of japan, that we are still giving out that same stock of purple hearts today. any american who is wounded
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today in afghanistan receives a purple heart that was forged for a soldier who was going to invade japan. it's going to be big, it's going to be bad. in addition, the united states fully expects that all of the allied p.o.w.s that are being held in japanese custody will be massacred, rather than allow them to be liberated. and the americans are right. the japanese high command had already issued orders that p.o.w.s were not allowed to be liberated. they were to be killed first. so is there a way out for the americans? well, one option is soviet intervention, right? and this is part of the reason the americans are negotiating so hard at yalta to get soviet intervention. because what happens if the soviets come into the war? >> you have one more person trying to negotiate terms. >> right. it's going to make things
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complex in terms of the negotiations. what's the price the soviets are going to demand? that's a tough question. but how about the positive? what's the positive to bring the soviets into the war? >> it's a second front. >> where? very good. >> northern shores, mainland china, manchuria. >> yeah, manchuria and mainland china. because what did we say the japanese were doing to try to resist the invasion? they were shipping their troops home from manchuria, right? what happens if the soviets invade manchuria? >> they're going to send troops back. >> yeah, even if -- they may send troops back, but at the very least, they've got to stop sending reinforcements to the home islands, right? so open up another front. prevent the japanese from reinforcing the home islands from the mainland. is that going to be enough to do in the japanese, though? >> no. >> people argue --
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>> probably not. >> don't people argue, though, that maybe the japanese were more scared of the soviet invasion and maybe that's why they surrendered? >> yeah, that's -- and once ent tell me back in my day, history is not a laboratory science. you can't go back and rerun it and change the variables. what we see is we have hiroshima, the soviet invasion and nagasaki right on top of each other. it's just a 1, 2, 3 combination punch that causes at least some portion of the japanese leadership to say, okay, it's time. as to what is the decisive blow, it's very difficult to decide which it is. and i tend to think really in terms of it's the sheer combination happening so rapidly on top of each other that really provides the psychological shock that let's the japanese leadership, at least some of the japanese leadership, change
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their thinking. but you raise a very good point. and there are some americans who say, hey, maybe soviet intervention. it's certainly worth a shot, right? negotiate and surrender. are the japanese offering anything that the united states can consider vaguely acceptable? >> no. >> no. add to that the united states is reading japanese diplomatic traffic. we've broken the japanese diplomatic ciphers, so they know they're seeking mediation and know the terms. and they know the terms are completely unacceptable. so there is not going to be a negotiated surrender. as a result, truman from potston issues essentially the final ultimatum. he's met with the british, he's met with the soviets. he's met with his military advisers. he knows the atomic bomb works. and so what does he tell the japanese at pottstown? >> horrible destruction is coming unless you surrender now. >> yeah.
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this is your last warning. prompt and utter destruction. prompt and utter destruction will be your fate if you don't surrender. and he offers some explication of the terms. we're not going to enslave the japanese people. japan will be allowed to remain a country. we'll have access to resources. not control, but it will have access to resources to rebuild its economy. but we're going to try war criminals. we're going to occupy the country. these are nonnegotiable. so this leads us to what we can call the nondecision to drop the atomic bomb. a lot of historians have burned a lot of ink trying to figure out when, where, who exactly decided to drop the atomic bomb on japan, and it's really
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difficult to find, because in many ways, there was no decision. there was simply an assumption. what do i mean by that? manhattan project, right? code word, covering the development of the atomic bomb. americans in cooperation with the british. the americans and british don't realize it, but the soviets are also getting cooperation through espionage, so they know what's going on, as well. but they produced the world's first effective atomic weapon tested in july of 1945. the second-most expensive arms program of world war ii. you remember what the first one was? talked about last time. >> b-29? >> the b-29, right. so the united states has spent -- the two most expensive weapon system in the war are here going to be united.
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having spent that much money, do you think there's a certain amount of institutional and bureaucratic inertia to put this new combined weapons system into effect? of course. of course. why build the thing if you're not going to use it? is it going to win the war by itself? >> no one knows. >> no one knows. by american standards, the japanese have already taken this thing far too far. they have held out far too long. this is pointless, and it's fueling american rage. they see americans as dying for almost no purpose in a war that japan has already lost. is an atomic bomb going to be enough to wake up the japanese and get them to quit? some americans hope so. a lot of american leaders are doubtful. some of the scientists who create the bomb argue that maybe a demonstration is more appropriate. pick some uninhabited island,
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take a japanese -- a delegation of japanese military and civilian leaders. have them sit in a boat offshore for a ways and we'll demonstrate the atomic bomb to them. show them the destruction that it can cause. why doesn't the american leadership accept this proposal? >> because the japanese would never get on a boat and watch. >> first off, it's going to be a process, right? it's going to be a difficult process. you've got -- first off, you've got to start negotiating with the japanese to show them the demonstration. and there aren't any negotiations going on. so it's going to be a problem. >> they already announced the glorious death of 100 million. so i think at this point they're not too concerned about the -- you know, the civilian population. they're more concerned about living up to the emperor and dying a glorious death for the mainland, japan.
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>> yeah, absolutely. there's really been no indication from the japanese leadership that possible massive civilian deaths are going to cause japan to quit the war. they have already suffered massive civilian deaths, right? upwards of 80, perhaps 100,000 dead in tokyo in one night. japanese didn't quit. so -- yes? >> you also have -- it's not a chief factor, but true american leadership see the writing on the wall between the soviet union and the united states. the ideological difference is obviously going to play a huge role. if the atomic bomb can -- has the potential to bring the japanese to surrender, then why not do it before the soviets invade? >> yeah. that's a factor. that's floating around in there. i always think of this as kind of staff meeting stuff. if you've ever been in a staff meeting, once everybody knows what the decision is going to be, now everybody sits back and thinks, okay, how can my particular agency benefit from this? and that's why i'm calling this a nondecision.
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everybody knows -- everybody who is in the know about the atomic bomb knows it's going to be used. so state department, those in the state department who know it's going to be used are saying, okay, how is this going to affect our post war relations? they're starting to see how it affects their particular -- their particular bailiwick, diplomatic relations. and there are a lot of americans excited about having the atomic bomb in their pocket to use in tough negotiations with the soviets. so that's definitely a factor. but i am not convinced by the arguments of historians who say that it's the predominant factor. to my interpretation, the any intimidation of the soviets that comes out of it, that's just gravy. certainly not to be turned down. but not the primary reason. so where are we going to target this thing? where are our american planners looking at?
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>> looking at military targets. >> okay, looking at military targets. in fact, hiroshima is actually the headquarters of the army that is slated to defend the southern island kyushu. that's also a major port facility, a lot of military targets in it. >> also, the cities they chose were relatively untouched by the fire bombing, as well. >> absolutely. there weren't too many left in japan at this point. but the idea is, in some ways, it's a matter of informing the americans, how you do bomb damage assessment on to a target that's already half destroyed when you hit it. in this case, the americans want to know just how effective this new weapon is. and it also will hopefully enhance the shock value to the japanese.
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one city that was pretty much intact, one bomb, one destroyed city. most americans aren't confident this is a war winner by itself, but there is some hope, just maybe this will work. and if it doesn't, well, there's always the tactical use of atomic weapons. those who were in the know about the atomic bomb began writing atomic bombs into the operation downfall plan. to use atomic bombs to destroy major military hard points and to help the american troops get ashore and help the american troops get inland in japan. not a lot of deep understanding at this point about the long-term impacts of radiation. the best advice they had was, you know what, don't send any troops through any place where you drop an atomic bomb for about 48 hours. >> i saw a documentary after the war, they actually had characters and what not they were going to fire warhead
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shells out of -- miles across the battlefield at the enemy. but obviously no one thinks about -- at that time, no one thought about the implications that come from, you know, radiation and what not. >> yeah, when we get into the 1950s, the american military is going to experiment when a whole variety of atomic weapons, atomic artillery shells, the atomic bazooka, the davy crockett, an atom bomb that can be launched from the back of a jeep by two or three people. for a while, atomic weapons seemed like the wave of the future before the full realization sinks in. and part of what's going to cause the realization of the long-term effects to sink in are indeed having used two of them at hiroshima and nagasaki, americans and people around the world can see the long-term effects. but in 1945, those are not well understood at all. not in the least. so this leads us to what we call

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